Tracy Hazas

Hemispheric Institute

4^th Annual Encuentro, New York

Interview with FOMMA and the Coatlicue Theater Company

The fourth annual encuentro of the Hemispheric Institute of Performance and Politics was held from July 11-19, 2003 at New York University. Among the artists present at the encuentro were Petrona De la Cruz and Isabel Suárez, of Fortaleza de la Mujer Maya (FOMMA), as well as Elvira and Hortensia Colorado, founders of the Coatlicue Theater Company.

In the interview that follows, they speak about their objectives, work and experiences as indigenous women artist-activists, as well as the responses they have received in various communities over time. Central to the discussion are themes of recovering and celebrating identity, maintaining and strengthening community, and passing on artistic and cultural traditions to younger generations.

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Tracy Hazas: What is it you want to achieve through your theater?

Petrona De la Cruz: Well, for us [in FOMMA—Petrona and Isabel], the objectives of our theater is to have education through theater, to send messages to the community itself and to the public in general, and to show that problems, or culture or tradition, exist not just in one part of the country—they exist all over the country; and to present the different cultural and social practices and problems of the community. And in our case, the objective is to teach the community through an education.

T: [To Hortensia and Elvira Colorado] And you, in Coatlicue?

Hortensia Colorado: Well, it’s almost the same. But, in the words we always use, it’s to educate and to entertain, right? Because while we’re educating, at the same time we’re also entertaining the audience, right? It might be in a community here in the United States, an urban community, a reservation community, or in communities in Mexico. I also think that, since we’re getting older, then to pass on, to pass something on to the next generation. That’s very important.

T: And why is it better to try to achieve these ends through theater, as opposed to other methods of bringing about change?

P: Because, for example… In the case of Chiapas, where there are many, many people who write, there are also many people who are illiterate. And through writing or a book… Those people didn’t have the opportunity to go to school … and it will take them a long time now to learn how to read. So through theater they can receive messages. And, as [Hortensia] said, on the one hand they’re enjoying themselves, but at the same time they’re educating themselves by way of theater. So it’s a way we’ve chosen to bring them education and the lesson of a written text.

Isabel Suárez: Yes, and in addition to being entertainment and education, it also has to do with health—yes, because we also have plays about health. So we’re building awareness among men and women with regards to how they should protect their own health and that of their children.

Elvira Colorado: And also, for us [in Coatlicue, Elvira and Hortensia]… Stories have a power, a capacity to heal—not only us, but our families, our communities, our nations. And often stories reflect like a mirror, and when people listen to the stories, when they see theater, it’s like seeing themselves, their reflection, in the stories. And they can identify [with the stories] and say, “Oh yes, I went through that too. That happened to me. I understand. Or I…” It’s also a way for them start to talk about these issues…whether it be domestic violence or something like that in their lives, they can start to talk and heal themselves. It’s not just them; others have gone through the same thing. Because that’s very important: to heal oneself first, because if there’s not that healing process, then that [issue] can continue to exist from one generation to the next.

I: And also, what we want to pass on… For example, we as indigenous women are pioneers in entering into work as actresses, so supporting and encouraging other women so that they also initiate projects and make theater. Theater is the means by which we can send the positive message of what we want to do, of our goal. Our goal of, for example, what we’ve already mentioned with regards to domestic violence, violence in the community, education, health… Because we have various plays. We stage plays with children, with women… And that’s what we want to do: to pass it on, above all else, to the younger generations.

T: You’ve done plays within your own communities as well as abroad…. What tends to be your audience? Or, what audience do you have in mind when you develop your plays? [Pause.] Does it tend more to be an indigenous community, or a non-indigenous one, or…?

I: We in Chiapas, in the plays we stage, we focus more on the indigenous community because we work in the mother tongue. We at the center work in two languages, which are Tseltal and Tzotzil. But in terms of the city… Institutions have also requested plays from us, and in those cases we work in Spanish for college students or for certain sections of the city to which we’re invited. And, for example, in those places we’ve traveled abroad, we work in Spanish as well. And depending on the subject—we deal with various subjects. In this case [the 2003 encuentro], a subject was chosen to present here.

H: We also write for our indigenous community, but “community”… Since we live in the city, then it’s for an urban community, right? But we also go to reservations here or to the Mexican community. And another issue that’s very important for us is identity. We ourselves had to recover that identity, because we were raised in such a way… My mother always told us, “You’re Mexican, you’re Mexican. Don’t you forget that: you’re Mexican.” But it was never that we were indigenous… So it was until we first came to the realization that we were indigenous, right? So when we heard friends say, “Oh, well, I was raised very traditionally. I know my, my language…” we—or well, I felt like—like something that—like… I felt like I wanted to cry because we didn’t have that. I couldn’t say, “I know my language.” You know? “I know how to dress. I know my tradition.” I think that, little by little… Although now we also have the Danza Mexica group—that’s another way of recovering, of beginning to recover. We had to travel all the way to where my mother was born, on a ranch, to know that that was where my mom was from, that we’re Otomí Chichimecs, that my grandmother spoke Otomí. A sister spoke Otomí but we didn’t know that. We grew up there with the language, but because of shame, because of discrimination, we didn’t, we didn’t realize. They had already died when we found out. And that’s a very large issue for us. And when we present work dealing with that issue, people from the audience say, “Oh. Me too.” And a Peruvian can say that. Someone from another country can say, “I grew up that way too.” Another Mexican can also say that. That’s part of how we were raised. And that’s important for—

E: We’re proud to know our native language because many of those who come from Mexico speak the language as well. They work in the restaurants, …in the delis and everything, and when we talk, [when] we’re conversing with them, they say, “Oh, yeah… I speak in my language.” But then often they’re ashamed around their peers at work. Their coworkers make fun of them. So they don’t talk. So they say, “It’s better not to speak. It’s best just to stay quiet.” And that, too, is a way of shutting that off, of forgetting their culture, their traditions.

And, well, another way we’ve tried to maintain our traditions is with traditional celebrations like the Day of the Dead. For so many years, for ten years already, we’ve been having that celebration in the Community Center. At the beginning it was somewhat difficult because much of the Mexican community said, “Well, we have our own way of celebrating it.” They weren’t very accepting of us yet, since we were born here. We’ve fought to break those borders that are so often imposed, not only between nations, but between individuals—politically, socially, cultural, spiritual. There exist those borders that we impose on ourselves. We had many problems of that sort in the beginning, but later, once they knew us, they trusted us enough to let us establish this tradition little by little with the Mexican community. So they started to come to the celebration and we invited them to set the altar. There were people who knew the traditions—the papel picado, they knew how to make the sugar skulls—all that, all of the tradition. And they started to do the workshops as well for the celebrations. And now, well, everyone comes. Many, many people come. And they look forward to participating.

There have also been other collaborations with other organizations that also do celebrations. The Museo Indígeno collaborated with us as well, last year. They held a celebration of the Day of the Dead. They invited Danza Mexica to participate, as well as a youth organization that works with young people of around sixteen or eighteen years of age. There’s also been collaboration with Chiapas, with Chiapan women photographers. I believe FOMMA has also visited and has an exchange with them. They also participated in the Day of the Dead celebration. They brought the altar they made to the Centro Comunitario Indígeno and left it there. So there are different ways of building community through traditions and culture.

T: I’d like to hear a little more about something Isabel touched on, with respect to indigenous artists. What paths are opening up as a result of your work—for young people, for example—in the theater world? Are there young people who see your plays and who can then think, “Well, I…want to start doing that kind of work, too”? Is that something that happens to the young people?

I: Yes. I know the young people are trying to start to stage plays on their own. There are young people, students, at the places we present our work, who ask us how we can help and support them. They’ve also produced some stagings. And well, we, with the little knowledge we have, we have given workshops to young people where we’ve been invited by government institutions to offer our support. We’ve also been invited to schools to work with the children and to help them stage their plays. The schools have also sent some people to us to take courses in our center. They come, be it from plays or other workshops, the girls and young women who come to us learn other activities that they take back with them to the community to teach to others. Regarding what Elvira said about identity… The children who are from or who have been raised in the city sometimes have forgotten their own language and their identity. Although the parents speak the language, the children do not. So we’re trying to recover that and teach the children that we shouldn’t lose our identity, but rather, we should be proud to have a language. So on the weekend we give a class for children in which they’re beginning to write in the language, and they’re even writing stories and doing storytelling. It’s a way of recovering the children and involving them so that they don’t lose the mother tongue.

P: Right now there’s even a group of young people forming in San Cristóbal that are going to start to do theater and various workshops. Activities like programs in radio, education and theater. The group is entirely made of young people from fifteen to eighteen, twenty years of age. Both indigenous and mestizo youth are coming together in the group. So that’s a new project that they’re starting. Recently they presented their work in San Cristóbal, sort of as the first piece of the group they’re starting. So, those doors are already opening so that the very young be involved as well. And there are both young men and young women in that group. I believe the group has about fifteen people now.

T: What influence is your theater having in the theater of your communities?

I: In the community? In the indigenous community or the mestizo community?

T: In…

I: Because for us there are two communities, those being the indigenous community and the mestizo community. In the mestizo community, well, there’s a lot of criticism—both positive and negative—because they think that we, as indigenous women, haven’t done any real study or that we don’t have enough real knowledge to stage plays. So from those people, most of the criticism is negative. But we don’t pay attention to their negativity. We focus on the positive. The positive isn’t concerning ourselves with what people think, but rather with what we want to do and what we want to give to the community, or to both communities—both indigenous and non-indigenous.

As I mentioned, we’ve been invited by government institutions and we perform the material without being afraid to say, “Why don’t women participate in political issues?” And they’ve paid attention to that. It depends on the subject. Either they request it or we decide what we’re going to present. In the community, that tends to be a message…for the indigenous community that addresses how one can break from the routine and do other things, beyond the day-to-day activities. A woman can do more than take care of her children, her husband, the house, etc. So that’s a message that we bring to the indigenous community. And the criticism from them…comes because we play men as women. They say, “Well, how is it possible for you as women to act as men?” And the men don’t think that…or they don’t feel that… Well, I don’t know, but anyway. Well, we can’t be like men—and do the voice and so on—but it is possible to play the part, for we’ve seen how the man rules the household, how he commands his wife and children. The man’s voice is the one that rules in the household. However, as we women have our rights, and as children have rights, there can be equality between the sexes. So it’s in response to this situation that we’ve begun working with women, men and children on approaching questions of how best to examine our experiences, and work to improve them as well.

As for the city, there they have a little more education, so with them we simply work with the issue at hand, according to their interests. They ask, “Well, how did you stage that play?” It comes out just like your question: “What can the indigenous community tell us?” or “What can mestizos tell us?”

T: And, for Elvira and Hortensia: do you work with women actresses, or with men and women both…? As Isabel said—

E: [Laughs.] We do the same thing.

H: Oh, yeah. We do the same.

E: Since it’s just us two!

H: Because it’s just us, and if there’s—

E: Little girls’ roles, men’s roles—

H: One time, a woman said, “Why don’t you use a man? Why do you guys play men’s roles?” And then others say, “No, no, no! Let them play the man’s part! Why can’t they do that role?!” Right? And well, that comes from stories too, from telling a story. When one tells a story, well, the dad talks, the uncle talks, the baby talks… Everything talks, right? The goddess talks, the coyote talks… One plays all these parts when one tells a story. Even just in everyday life. When a boy comes home, he tells his mother, “The dog followed me and he was all, ‘Woof woof woof woof!’” Or, “The teacher told me, ‘Agh! Now, why did you…’” We do that in real life, too. So one might ask, “Hey, why do you play the man’s part?” but that happens all day long. If one reflects on stories… Almost every day is a story. We come bringing stories.

T: Have you got anything planned for the near future—a project or anything…? Are you working on anything right now?

P: Well, right now we’ve got a project we want to bring to the stage…about women and politics. And about the vote. Why don’t women vote? Or, if women are going to vote, what are their criteria [for the candidates]…? Oftentimes only the man goes out to the community and casts his vote for a presidential candidate and the representatives. So that’s a project we have, and we hope to find enough resources to stage it as our next production. So that, starting to work on that play about women’s politics.

T: And that would be done in Chiapas?

P: In Chiapas, yes. It’s also possible we’ll take it abroad, too. As for right now, we’ve just finished working on the play we’re going to perform on Saturday. We worked from sunup to sundown, as they say, because it was a play we really wanted to bring [to the encuentro]. So then after we go back we’ll have the other project to do there, provided we have the resources. We may also be able to take that project abroad, because we’ve been invited to Washington…to the Smithsonian. So hopefully, we’ll be able to work on the project and take it there.

I: Above all else, the project is about manipulation. Manipulation of the vote. As there are many political parties, often people just go by color. Or by the individual. But when it comes to carrying out the responsibilities of the position, the candidate doesn’t fulfill what he promised. Women are deceived and cheated. They’re asked for identification: “Well, I’ll give you… farm chickens,”—I don’t know, something—“but give me a copy of your voter’s I.D.” And so, with that exchange, she’s just sold someone her vote, and without even knowing the person. She’s simply cheated. So, she gives away her I.D. innocently, thinking, “Well, he’s going to bring me something in return, right?” Anyway, whether or not the woman wins the vote, women need to be more alert. She needs to be more conscious of her own opinion and of what she wants, what party she supports. She needs to be able to say she wants to vote for a certain person, and one that she knows well. That’s the issue we’re looking at for the next production. [Pause.]

H: And ours is the stories of the women Zapatistas, their stories.

E: Often people ask us, “Why… are you guys always walking in protests? Why are you always going around protesting? And what’s with your theater?” And we always have to answer, “That’s part of our theater. That’s what nourishes us.” That’s part of our work. You can’t separate the political from the work we do. It’s what nourishes us.

H: To say that you’re indigenous is something—

E: That’s political! Already, just with that, you’re—

H: Sometimes that’s what others criticize us for: for being very political. So it can be difficult sometimes because they just say, “Oh no, those women are really political,” and they don’t know what we’re going to do or what sort of things are going to come out of our mouths!

P: And it seems like religion isn’t political but it is indeed involved in politics.

I, E, H: Ooooh! [They laugh.]

P: There are those that say, “Well, I’m involved in a religion and there I don’t even touch politics.” But we’re all involved with politics. Religion is politics. But everyone thinks, “Politics doesn’t want me.”

I: It’s everyday life itself. You’re in your house, you’re working with politics. And it’s that way with everything.

P: With everything, even with your husband [All laugh.], there’s politics. With your children, there’s politics. With everyone there’s politics.

H: Life itself.

P: And so politics follows us everywhere. It’s not just the representatives or the president who is political.

H: ¡No!

P: We all are.

T: Well, thank you very much.

All: You’re welcome.

E: Thank you, too…